I have been trying since the 7 Dec to get information on my Dads 'Care' Manager employed by the SS.

I did a straightforward FOI request for her professional details having found her on their search engine as being registered with the Nursing and Midwifery lot.

I have been messed around and given them every chance to reply. The last communication was about 2 weeks or more ago when a PA replied to my e mail chase up saying due to snow she wasnt able to get into work and would deal with my request by the end of last week. I agreed to let her have extra time in Good Faith and was very understanding of her situation.Since then - nothing. I sent a reminder on Monday - silence. Today I made a complaint with her colleague who originally passed me onto this PA.I get the feeling the self preservation society is at work here.I smell rats.

Doesnt matter if they comply or not. I am going to report them to the ICO and I have already stated in the Court proceedings I request that the Care Manager attend Court to give evidence on Oath anyway.

Anyone else had this kind of problem with them?

regards Dee

My standard advice: ALWAYS go to the 'Mechanic' - forget the 'Oily rags'! Write to the 'Chief executive' or whatever the top man/woman is called. They will at least ensure that action is taken by someone because they have the most to lose if it isn't!

Thanks Steve thats what my late Dad used to say 'always go to the top'.

Unfortunately these days those at the top in certain places dont seem to care if anyone tries to complain and worse still you might get treated appallingly for even daring to complain. My Council being a prime example.

However I shall give these the benefit of the doubt nonetheless and give it a go.You never know they might surprise me and give me a bit of much needed faith.

regards Dee

Dee wrote:I have been trying since the 7 Dec to get information on my Dads 'Care' Manager employed by the SS.

Dee, what kind of info on your Dad's 'Care Manager' are you looking for?

Was she working in the care home?

Was she a Social Worker?

Tell me more and I shall try to help.

I've lost faith in any "formal complaints procedure" which is more or less what Steve is suggesting.

Steve, If you write to the Top Dog/Chief Executive, then all he/she will do is to pass your complaint/query all the way back down to the same oily rag that you're either trying to get info from or complaining about. The oily rag writes the draft of the reply; the Top Dog then puts a signature to it. The result then is: another 3 months waiting for the Top Dog to learn how to bark. So it's a waste of time and effort.

Nobody is accountable any longer - not even (or even above all others not!) the Chief Executive. It's just a waste of time.

VM

Unfortunately VM I have to agree with you about the buck passing regime that prevails these days.I could write a book.Maybe I will just go straight to the ICO as I have no doubt my complaint will be ignored and I havent had a response to the last e mail either. However we shall see maybe I will hear from them shortly and take things from there.

The person I am asking for information on worked for the SS. I didnt realise her title was Care Manager until very recently and I thought she was Dads Social Worker but I dont know if that is so which is another reason for me wanting details. I think she might have been his CPN as well but I dont know about that either.

Therefore the information I require are her professional qualifications, her basic work CV, her role and responsibilities and where she worked prior to the SS here. I also want confirmation in relation to fitness to practice and that she is competently trained/qualified to carry out the duties in her roles. I am not after 'personal' information merely professional information and purely in line with her job.

If they wont give the information to me I am calling her as a witness anyway and she can verify things on Oath instead as well as answer quite a few questions for me that quite clearly need answers.

regards Dee

Sorry that should read 'works' for the SS etc. I am reverting to speaking in past tense there due to Dad no longer being with us and no longer being a client of theirs.

Dee,

This phrase "Care Manager" may mean that she was the person managing your father's care, as his social worker. It's a description that the SS use, meaning the person who puts the care plan/package together, monitors it, organises the reviews and so on. [If you're lucky!!]

A CPN is not likely to be a social worker as well - community psychiatric nurses are employed by the PCT/NHS, and are trained nurses. SW's aren't.

But a CPN could always retrain and qualify as a SW, and vice versa.

I would think you are unlikely to be given info about her work history before she became a SW in your area - unless there were any concerns raised with her professional body, the GSCC. After all, she may have been a bus driver, an airline pilot, or a bank manager, before 'training' as a SW - all irrelevant to her work as SW/Care Manager. And even if this was her first ever job as a SW - well, we all have to start somewhere in our first job as whatever, I suppose.

Did you find her on the GSCC list as a registered SW?

VM

VM it would seem from the basic details she has been in her profession for some considerable years. I just needed to know whether she has always worked in this field of care or if it is a recent move to this field of work or whatever. This will then enable me to take a much broader view of things generally.

I did try the GSCC and no joy but I was told that registration isnt compulsory for those dealing with elderly care. Which is worrying generally when you think about it! Yes I agree we all have to start somewhere and I dont care if someone was a hairdresser or shop assistant as long as they were up to the job even if they didnt have a bag full of qualifications to rely upon its being able to do the job that really counts.

The 'if you are lucky' has considerable relevence and I cannot comment any further on this for certain reasons.

regards Dee

VM can a CPN be employed as a Care Manager in the SS and thus be qualified to lawfully assess for medical and health and not just be restricted to finances? Could this be a sort of dual role to enable the assessments to be lawful and covered by both the NHS and the SS?

Can you see where I am coming from and why I need answers?

regards Dee

Dee wrote: I did try the GSCC and no joy but I was told that registration isnt compulsory for those dealing with elderly care.

Did the GSCC put that in writing to you, Dee?

And if so, did the GSCC say - in precise words - that it isn't compulsory for a Social Worker dealing with elderly care to be registered with the GSCC?

VM

Dee wrote:VM can a CPN be employed as a Care Manager in the SS and thus be qualified to lawfully assess for medical and health and not just be restricted to finances? Could this be a sort of dual role to enable the assessments to be lawful and covered by both the NHS and the SS?

Can you see where I am coming from and why I need answers?

regards Dee

Don't know the answer to that one, Dee. But I'm not sure I understand your question either!!!

Some people have a CPN involved in their life - but don't ever have a SW in their life. Eg. someone living in their own home, with spouse/partner, may have a CPN involved, but no SW. Or you could have a SW, but no CPN. And so on.

A CPN can lawfully assess medical and health needs and arrange the 'package of health care' that comes with that - that's the role of a CPN.
A SW can lawfully assess social care needs and arrange the 'package of social care' that comes with that - that's the role of a SW.
I've never heard of a CPN - or any other nurse - carrying out financial assessments. But it all depends what you mean by financial assessments.

The SS have a specific department that carries out financial assessments. A SW doesn't do that as such. A SW may hand over a form to a person, or may even help that person fill in the form, and thereby see that the person has, say £1million in the bank, but the calculations are all done by another department in the SS.

Similar to the way that an SS Social Worker can be 'seconded' to work with any particular team, I suppose it might be possible for a qualified CPN to be seconded to work within the SS - but I have absolutely no idea for sure.

When I was working with Company A, they seconded people to work with Company B for a while. All good fun and good experience for all of us. Then we eventually returned to Company A, or resigned and worked for Company B!! We were all 'supervised' so that we didn't cause too much chaos.

And I also know of a SW working with a particular team who had absolutely no experience of 'mental health of older people'. The supervision was doubtful, but I can't blame the SW for that - it's the team leaders who were responsible.

That's just me thinking 'sideways' now, Dee - and I may be completely off the wall with it!!

VM

Thanks VM

A CPN can lawfully assess medical and health needs and arrange the
'package of health care' that comes with that - that's the role of a
CPN.

Right thats clear. So I need to find out her role basically.

Assessments I mean in relation to being eligable for free care upon admission to the Home.

The SS have a specific department that carries out financial
assessments. A SW doesn't do that as such. A SW may hand over a form to
a person, or may even help that person fill in the form, and thereby
see that the person has, say £1million in the bank, but the
calculations are all done by another department in the SS.

Right thats another question answered thanks VM.regards Dee

Bit more info for you, Dee:

A job ad for a CPN - http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/vacdetails.cgi?selection=912409494 - once you've read the basic job description, scroll down and click on Job Description (under Documents) and you'll get the full info.

It's only one example, in one part of the country. So you'd need to find your own mental health team and see what comes up there. (Are you in Wales, I can't remember?) But it seems that a CPN can be part of the MDTeam. So roles might overlap by local arrangement/convenience, perhaps. Dunno!!

Dee: I can only say what's happened in our life, which doesn't mean it's global knowledge. Just that the way things worked for us in the finance department. Or not, as the case may be. But remember that rules are bent all the time - legally!!!! And especially where assessments are concerned.

VM

VM

Thanks so much for your help on this on reflection I am now able to get a clearer picture of things. Sorry to be a pain but you have helped me considerably.

I am most grateful.

regards Dee

http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/vacdetails.cgi?selection=912416169 is interesting in terms of roles.

http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/vacdetails.cgi?selection=912416190

VM

VM you are a treasure.BTW I forgot to reply to your post in between on here. I was told over the phone regarding the query about registration and elderly care. Not saying its correct but thats what I was told.

Thanks ever so much.

regards Dee

Hi DEE,
I was also put to a lot of trouble by social services,when I requested information under the foi, regarding my 90 year old relative having falls at home ,and it was reported by her carers,because I saw it myself in her daily log book,however ,when I asked them how many other times this had happened, they at first didn't reply, then when I contacted the head of department, and complained,they sent 6-blank pages of A4 paper ,another 6pages of requests for planning permission for a handrail , and the final insult was that any other information that went to make up the bundle ,was blacked out (or redacted as they like to say),thereby rendering it unreadable.That's when I lodged a complaint with the ICO, and SEVEN months down the line ,have STILL not had any action .I phoned them christmas week ,quoted the number they gave me, and was told "it will take time" because they've been inundated with complaints(I wonder why?) So I wish you all the best and hope you have better luck yourself.
best wishes to all
all4justice

Thanks All4 and I am sorry you have had the same obstructive tactics when dealing with your Council /SS.

I
havent made a FOI to the SS - no point as the Council totally ignores
the law and wont adhere to it I have lots of proof of this that I shall
be actioning with the ICO. I have a pile of complaints ( not just the
Council) however I just havent got round to filing them properly yet.

People
only hold back on information or hide it if they themselves have
something to hide.The Council in the Court case are avoiding disclosure
too. I was refused my reasonable request at the first hearing for
disclosure of all documents I am entitled to see which has not given me
a fair chance and made it very difficult for me to date as a direct result. I just hope the higher court
is fairer with me.

regards Dee

Hello Dee
Welcome to the SS club of lack of information. Like you the SS have refused the solicitor access to my MIL`s records even although he has the EPA etc.
What they actually said is that he might be able to see them but only if he agrees not to show them or discuss them with us or any other third party
which includes the specialist solicitor dealing with our case.In our case its SCC. In due course one way or the other I will get those records.
You may wish to look into the area where the NHS and the SS were decreed by government to joint working in the area of CC from I think 2000 or 2001.
It will be interesting to know the courts point of view especially if you have or intend to have a court order placed upon them for the disclosure or have I missed
something.
Regards
Alex

Hi Alex

I dont know what will happen about disclosure maybe the Case Management meeting will resolve that problem.

regards Dee

Had a response to say my complaint is being sent on for investigation. The lady who has dealt with things generally has been very competent and I have no complaints there. However the same cannot be said for her colleague who she passed the request onto and who has still not responded.

regards Dee

Just a quick update. I took the advice of going to the Top and yesterday I e mailed the CEO and made a formal complaint. I had a response back this morning from someone who will take this up.

Lets hope that whoever isnt doing their job will now do it and in future wont mess people around.

I will keep you updated on this runaround exercise.

Sorry this is a flying visit.

regards Dee

Well total silence.

Makes you wonder what people might have to go through if they want to make a complaint about one of their registered members doesnt it?

Hardly instills any confidence in me if they cant even deal with a simple request for information!

regards Dee

Dee wrote: Makes you wonder what people might have to go through if they want to make a complaint about one of their registered members doesnt it?

I can answer that, Dee, and the answer is: two years of absolute hell. I'm almost reaching the two-year date. And believe me, it's unadulterated hell.

VM

In a similar vein, I'm having difficulty getting a reply to a letter I sent to a psychiatric nurse at our local hospital. She carried out an assessment on my mum's mental health (without me being informed even though I had stated that I wished to be present at all assessments) and the report she wrote was laughable. The letter I sent to her asked how she had come to her conclusions about my mum, what questions she had asked etc. I have so far asked on 3 occasions and made formal complaints to the CE on 2 occasions and still nothing. I've just contacted the Nursing and Midwifery Council to ask for help but so far no reply. Does anyone know if I am entitled to this information?
MW

MW

If you are now providing the care your Mum needs, under fully funded NHS Continuing Healthcare, then you have a perfect right to any information you ask for.

Have you sent your letters by Recorded Delivery? And checked up to make sure they have been received? It might be worth sending one by Recorded Delivery - or even deliver it in person, if you can, and get a signed receipt.

I know you shouldn't need to - but they play games otherwise, saying it never reached us.

VM

Isnt it disgraceful how they duck and dodge things?

I am getting this kind of conduct in the court case too.

Seems to me that these people who we all deal with who dodge the issues and give people the run around might have a lot to hide.

regards Dee

Sent:Wed,3Feb 2010 8:15

Subject:RE:Information request - Complaint

Dear ************












Thank you for your email to the NMC. I am sorry that you have been unahppy with our response to your inquiry.






Please allow me to investigate this issue and come back to you with a response.






Yours sincerely

Peter Pinto de Sa
Manager
Office of the Chair and Chief Executive






Still waiting................................

regards Dee

Did Peter Pinto de Sa give you a timescale for his 'response'?

It not, ask for a response within 10 working days, or even 7 if you're feeling up to it!!

Otherwise it may well take another 28 or 40 or more working days!

If you don't ask, you don't get. If you don't demand, you won't get! So demand. Nicely, of course!!!


VM

VM good thinking Batman!

However I think I have more than proved the point with this lot and will instead let the person concerned explain things and answer any questions on Oath instead.

regards Dee

Update.

The silence from the NMC is deafening. Therefore I have
made a request to the Council to confirm the Care Managers details and
she is now being subpoenaed by me testify on Oath in a Public Hearing.

What
the NMC is up to is anyones guess but it doesnt put them in a very good
light with the public when they conduct themselves like this over a
general request for information. Pity help anyone asking for an
investigation or making a serious complaint.Let this exercise be a
warning to you.

It was a straightforwards request all they
had to do was refuse the information if they had lawful reason to but
they just have gone deadly silent and completely ignored it instead.

So that's the standards of service you can
expect from dealing with the NMC folks.Very telling it is too.

Makes
me wonder how fit they are when dealing with investigations
disciplinaries and serious complaints.

No wonder things are in
such a mess.

regards Dee